The Place of Women in a Predominantly Male Developer World - Part 1

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 0:00

I do think that if I had been a man, I would have I was doing a lot of math; we were 8 or 9 in that course because there were a lot of people who wanted more math. At school, I think all the men went to engineering school and all the all the women didn't. Not a single one. And we were four women, and three of us went into medicine. Or from my case, I was in pharmacology. Unconsciously, you are pushing men to go to engineering school because engineers are like, okay, you can't see a man there easily. If the woman is also good at science or things like that, you are like, okay, medicine should be good for you because you have that kind of torch. You know, it's.

OLIVIER COLSON: 0:46

Like it's okay for women because, you know, you You care for people you need, and you need to have no, this, this very, motherly side, actually. So it's really hard to put it this way.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 0:58

But I went to a friend's birthday and we were all girlfriends and boyfriends, and everybody was introducing themselves. And you must be working for Odoo. Or so he said to my husband. No, I am.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 1:14

And.

OLIVIER COLSON: 1:16

This.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 1:16

Is assuming by default that I cannot be the When I began, and I was the first woman on the team when I began, some people would change their manner or whatever they were talking about because I went into the room.

OLIVIER COLSON: 1:33

Hi, everyone, and welcome to this new episode of Today, we decided to offer you the rebroadcasting of a live from our Twitch channel. This time, you'll be able to hear the first part of our conversation. Ready? Let's go! Hi everyone, and welcome to the second episode of Odoo Unplugged. So today we're going to discuss a very interesting subject. We're going to discuss women in the world of development because indeed developer is often seen as a man's job. And so that's why today I have only women with me, only developers from Odoo to discuss the subject. And so to talk about their personal, I would say, journey and how they see the whole situation and maybe how we could reach parity or how important it is this kind of thing. So maybe it's best if you start introducing yourself. So maybe with you, Camille.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 2:27

I'd be glad. Well, first, I'm very excited to be My name is Camille. I've been working at Odoo for a bit more than two years now. I'm actually in your team, so I'm in this team. Yes it is. I'm in the accounting app development. Uh, I actually used to be a French teacher. I've been for something like five, six years. At the beginning, I taught to teenagers, and then I switched to teaching to adults. Neither of those worked out. And when I had the opportunity to switch, I went to a bachelor in Computer science. Then I worked at Odoo and this is the best life.

OLIVIER COLSON: 3:04

Haha. So we'll go back of course on the on the so on. But let's first continue with the presentations. Morgan. Yep.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 3:13

Hi. Uh, thanks for having me too. I am working at Odoo in research and development in the sales team for almost two years now. Uh, at first I was a chocolate maker, and at the time, I thought it was the best job, uh, in my life. So I really loved what I do. I did, uh, but then I couldn't find any work. So for many years, I was just searching for somewhere to to work. And at some point in my life, I was like, okay, I need to forget about that dream and restart again and start new studies. And that's when I began to learn about coding. And I did, uh, two, two formation of six months before joining Odoo.

OLIVIER COLSON: 3:56

And finally Morgan.

MAURINE ANTONIS: 3:58

Maurine,

OLIVIER COLSON: 3:59

Maurine. I'm sorry. Sorry. I'm really. Sorry. You knew it would happen.

MAURINE ANTONIS: 4:03

Okay. I'm Maureen, I'm working at P-tech in student, and then it didn't work, so I switched to dev studies, basically.

OLIVIER COLSON: 4:15

So you have like a more usual background. This is really interesting because, uh, you two have a very special story, actually. Right. So, uh, what did you, the idea of of getting into development because I assume it happened for very, very different reasons for the three of you. Uh, so what was, I would say, the initial spark. Uh, who wants to start? Let's go with your spark.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 4:39

Okay. Uh, for me, uh, you have to know that I was was very difficult for me to let go of my dream. And then I was just searching for a work where I could work, actually, where I could just send my CV somewhere and get hired because that was the problem at the time. And so I was just searching, for jobs that were looking for people. And then a friend of mine told me, oh, hey, you could be a dev. And the thing is, at the time it was almost like a silly joke because I was with some friends and they just started laughing, like, not because I am a girl, but more because I wasn't tech-orientated at all. Like if you ask me about a computer or a thing, I can't answer you because that's not my thing.

OLIVIER COLSON: 5:27

You were into chocolate. That is very, very

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 5:29

That's very different indeed. Uh, but then my friend continued and say to me, yeah, I am. I'm sure you could do it and it would be nice for you because you are highly logical and you are creative, and it's a job you should do. And it was the first time someone told me, okay, this job exists first. Well, no, I know it existed, but I it never, uh, it was never linked to it exist. And you can do it, you know. So it was always a job that other people do, people that are knowledgeable in computer. And I wasn't at the time. And so I first found, uh. Uh, a learning, uh, thing, uh, in the internet. And I tried it for like, two minutes. And after two minutes I was like, okay, I want to do that because it's fun as hell. And I am so sad that I didn't find it sooner.

OLIVIER COLSON: 6:20

What was so fun about it? Uh, so the first time you had the contact with with programming, uh.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 6:28

I created something, and it did what I wanted it

MAURINE ANTONIS: 6:34

And this.

OLIVIER COLSON: 6:34

This does not happen with chocolate. Uh uh.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 6:37

Nothing. Yes, yes, it did happen. Because when you create a chocolate.

OLIVIER COLSON: 6:40

It doesn't do it by itself normally, unless.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 6:43

I'm just by yourself. And you have to wait a bit Uh, that's true. Uh, but there is just like, you know, you have this challenge, like. You have to do this thing in coding and, you know, like only the if and you are trying to do so you have a lot of uh, implicated if and it's awful, but it's your first code, and it works, and you are so happy because of it. Uh, the first.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 7:07

The first code is awful and wonderful at the same

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 7:09

Yeah. You know, it's a discovery.

OLIVIER COLSON: 7:12

But you're so proud of doing it for this. It was the same for me the first time. You do something that works like. Wow.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 7:17

Exactly.

OLIVIER COLSON: 7:18

It's stupidly simple, but. Wow.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 7:21

Yeah, this is mine.

OLIVIER COLSON: 7:22

And so, uh, the the creative part was also and I think it's something that, uh, maybe is something a bit forgotten when people talk about development and try to advertise the job, you know, uh, it's that it's, it's like super creative, actually. And how different is it for from from, well, from chocolate making. But you get my point. I get there are a few differences that I can imagine. Uh, but outside of the obvious, if.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 7:47

You want a nice picture, I could tell you that bit of your soul like in it. Like I said, it was a nice, uh, painting. Uh, but the thing is, my team is on very huge. But I can read code and say, oh, that's this person. That's good. It's. I can recognize the people when I am reading code because everyone has his coding style, and and it's nice, actually. So yeah, you can be very personal with your own code. Mhm.

OLIVIER COLSON: 8:12

Mhm. Indeed. Indeed. Uh, I suggest we go on with your story in a bit more detail. So what was the initial spark for you.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 8:20

Well the spark as long as I can remember has So I used to be a very uh video game and computer-oriented nerd.

OLIVIER COLSON: 8:32

I am as well. Uh, I was I was.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 8:34

A nerd and a geek at the time where it was an

OLIVIER COLSON: 8:39

To so. Well. Yeah.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 8:40

You would tend to hide it and not put it in front So every. Yeah. And then, uh, I made the mistake of being good at the French course, which meant that it went to the background and I, uh, I was oriented to a job that would suit me.

OLIVIER COLSON: 9:02

And do you think it was because you were a woman,

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 9:06

I think I think seeing me as a child and as a of things, had I been a boy, that would have been a possibility. I could have ended up still doing this French course and teaching for a few years. But at least I would have known. I firmly believe that. I would have known that this is an opportunity that would suit me. When I saw, when I came back to studying, to study code, when I saw the courses that I would attend, I was so excited, and I told myself, okay, yes, there is math. I've never been this good in math, but I can manage. Everything else looks so wonderful and I want to learn more about that. And I do think that if I had been a man, I would have had this opportunity sooner.

OLIVIER COLSON: 9:52

Yeah, that's that's interesting. Um, Maurine, uh, is it something that you felt, uh, as well yourself when you, you decided that it would be, uh, your studies, uh, that maybe it was something. Oh, but you're a woman. Should you do that or.

MAURINE ANTONIS: 10:05

No, I didn't feel that.

OLIVIER COLSON: 10:06

Okay. So what brought you to it then?

MAURINE ANTONIS: 10:08

Uh, I started first, as I said before, I started a nurse because I. It didn't work, basically.

OLIVIER COLSON: 10:17

But then what was the, um. How did you suddenly Okay, actually.

MAURINE ANTONIS: 10:19

The thing is, I knew that there behind a web page And I was like, okay, uh, also, I like video games, basically. And I was like, okay, where can I go to find some, uh, some information? And there was a guy, um, uh, in my family that was doing dev studies. And then, uh, I asked him, uh, what's behind it? And basically, uh, that's where I went. Mhm.

OLIVIER COLSON: 10:50

Mhm. I think it's interesting because uh, uh, you I mean it's always the same when you would you talk about uh social evolution like that and you know, uh, women being allowed to do things that were less okay before, uh, um, it's just, uh, not everybody moves and evolves at the same time. And so there are parts of the society where it's okay, you want to be a developer. Okay. Yeah. So be it and problem and others where it's it's it's unthinkable, or at least at the beginning. It's not something that you would spontaneously, uh, say, okay. Oh, you're a girl. You like computers. Why don't you do something in development? Um, so we have, like, both the situations there. Uh, do you have a special background about that as well?

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 11:35

I mean, in, uh, in my studies, I first, before math, like, we were 8 or 9 in that course because there were a lot of people that wanted more math, uh, at school. And in fact, it's funny because when I. I see what the people in my class, uh, did become. We are forced, not forced, but, uh, advice.

OLIVIER COLSON: 12:00

Where life brought them, you mean. But they become became. Uh.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 12:04

I mean, it's not consciously, uh, but I think all all the women didn't. Not a single one. And we were four women, and three of us did go in medicine. Or from my case, I was in pharmacology before doing. When you.

OLIVIER COLSON: 12:23

See that, you're like, something's. Fishy. Yeah.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 12:25

And uh, that's where you're like, okay, we are. The nine of us were in a math, a math course. A lot of us were also in a science course at the same time, more predominant, uh, course. I mean, uh, but yeah, in, in consciously you are pushing men to go to engineering school because engineer is like, okay, you can't see a man there easily. Uh, but for a woman, if the woman is also good at science or things like that, you are like, okay, medicine should be good for you because you have that kind of torch, you know? But that's not true. I mean, I stopped, uh, pharmacology because I don't want to be in contact with the client. Uh, I mean, I don't want to talk to them, so I will probably kill someone if you have me to, to talk to them.

OLIVIER COLSON: 13:12

So that's another good cliche. About developers, actually. But unrelated to the baby. But indeed, uh, I think you're you're pointing something very right here. Uh, uh, there are just things, you know. Well, it's it's the way I perceive it. Uh, so maybe I'm wrong because I'm a man, and, you know, I don't have the same vision of the situation as women. And sometimes I think there are a lot of biases that I have because I don't face any kind of discrimination like that. So, uh, personally, it didn't impact me. Uh, but I still have a sister, so I knew a few things, and, um, and, uh, things like medicines, uh, it's like it's okay for, for women because, you know, you have to, to care about people to care for people. You need you need to have, you know, this, this very, uh, uh, motherly side, actually. So it's really hard to put it this way, but that's the idea. I think a lot of people in the society in general will very, very easily have. Uh, and I have an example in mind, and I'm forced to give uh, uh, there was a French politician during the last presidential election, so a woman. And so she presented herself as the big feminist. So really, a woman as a president would be the first time in history in France that's a big thing. So of course, huh. And at some point she said something like, you know, having a woman in power would be better because we women are more, uh, careful. We are more motherly with people. We have a more sensibility. That's just crazy because even a feminist woman here was saying things like that. So it's really isn't there some kind of imbalance in the society about that? And how can he how can it be, uh, uh, I would say countered, actually. How how do you fight against these kind of things? Things. Because and.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 15:02

Should we. Actually shouldn't we. Because I think I, I think we, I don't believe in the biology of being caring and merciful. And just because you happen to be born with X chromosomes. However, I do believe that even the most modern parents will face some bias and will educate in a gendered way, whether they want it or not, and with the best intentions. So it is indeed something that we grow up with and that we shouldn't deny. And being motherly, being caring isn't something we should be ashamed of and isn't something a man should be ashamed of. Sure.

OLIVIER COLSON: 15:39

Of course, I'm not saying this is something that men should do, because it would just reverse the situation. And that's not a good idea.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 15:46

I think a way we could rephrase the question is motherly can be a plus even in the tech field. And how not all women are caring are mothers and our, uh, very. Others oriented. Now, this is a good thing also.

OLIVIER COLSON: 16:08

For a woman. Not, uh, not being like that. Yeah. Uh, it might, I think it might be sometimes difficult in society to just find a.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 16:15

I don't really like the fact, the fact that we unfair. I mean, a lot of men want to be nurses or schoolteachers, and they can do it, too. Same way a woman can be a developer. And we don't have to add this trait to a gender. Mhm. Mhm.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 16:35

Mhm.

OLIVIER COLSON: 16:36

Absolutely I totally agree. And I think it's something that uh sometimes people forget to say it, but I think it's important to, to just as you said actually uh, so I'm a man normally I'm pretty sure about that.

MAURINE ANTONIS: 16:49

Uh, and, and um and.

OLIVIER COLSON: 16:51

And and and I'm like the more sensitive guy and Well, often actually, I see that, uh, a lot of people. So men, women, women, both of them don't react well to that because you're not supposed to be like that. Just be a man, man. Excuse me. But that is that is a problem. And I think you have a problem on both sides. Really, uh, of, um, this image you have to, to, to, to stick to. But as you say, I think I'm not saying that to point to people and say and be like, oh, you're bad. You shouldn't do that. Because we all live indeed in a society. With whatever you do, there will be pre-made images, and there will be people who will not match these images. That's whatever you do, whatever the society, it will happen. And so it's nice that we have, I think, means to discuss, uh, with, with these people and that we don't just point them like, uh, uh, but yeah, sometimes you have to just face the situation and work with it. Uh, how would you say, uh, how would you say you worked with it in your job, in your career, yourself, in your professional life? Uh, well, the situations like that are where you were like, okay, uh, ideally, I would prefer the situation to be different, but people are like that not because they are bad and not because they are discriminating. Discriminating me, uh, intentionally. And I will just do that to work with that and just be, uh, you know, part of the, of the, of the group, actually, because I think that's also something, uh, uh, would you always react fighting against situations like that when you see that the guy in front of you is just okay? The attitude is a bit weird, but it's not bad. It's just, you know.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 18:33

I mean, I don't have any point, uh, there because So if a men say something to me, I can say, okay, you are not manly enough, because do you wear armor every Saturday? So no, I don't have a problem.

OLIVIER COLSON: 18:48

First things may be. Uh, softer than that. And, uh, not really some someone coming to you and be like, oh, shut up, you're just a woman. Because that is unacceptable in any situation.

SPEAKER5: 18:57

Of course.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 18:58

I don't have the keys, but, uh, I think thing to me, so I don't have the problem.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 19:08

I do have actually a very recent example, because developers with our husbands and wives and girlfriends and boyfriends, and everybody was introducing themselves. And so you must be working for Odoo also he said to my husband. No, I am, and. This is. Assuming by default that I cannot be the developer in the couple. And this was something somebody who was really nice and who was really very ongoing and very easy to talk to once he was rectified. Yeah, he didn't mean any harm. And actually seeing that we exist and that we matter and that we are not out of the imagination, Mm.hmm probably did a good job for him. And in those cases, I'm not willing to fight against anybody. And even in more nefarious cases, when people are really super mean, either meaning to or not, where I actually am not willing to fight all the time. This is tiring. So I choose my fights.

OLIVIER COLSON: 20:13

Sure. Yeah, sure. And I think, you know, it's it's normal because at the end of the day, you have to live your life and and sometimes just always be like, no, you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't say that on every subject. That could be a bit annoying. So not on the big, big things. Of course, on these ones you have to fight, huh? But it would be. It would be impossible to just live in that. So, uh, that brings us to to my next question, actually, uh, so being the woman, uh, in around developers. So I remember that's, that's a story from a story from my studies, and it's not very glorious, but still, uh, we used to work a lot, um, uh, in this computer room, uh, you know, uh, that was for students. And so you spend the whole night there working on your projects. Uh, and, of course, it was. It was especially my year. It was only men, uh, actually. And. Okay. And sometimes you had an exception. One woman, a woman entering the room. And in my year, there were there was no, no woman at all. But in the, uh, the years below there were like 2 or 3. And so it was always them. And every time there was a woman entering everyone was like, staring like, whoa, this is weird. And that must have been difficult, actually, for them. Uh, how do you I mean, when you start entering the development world, isn't it a problem, actually, that people react like something's weird? There's a woman.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 21:39

I didn't. Feel that. I mean, I think the problem is more with young people, like. I mean, we are adults now. We are working with adults, and we are not young teenagers with a lot of hormonal change, man. So it's okay. I can understand why, at 18 it's a bit more difficult. But no, I mean, we are adults.

OLIVIER COLSON: 22:01

Um, I wouldn't say it was difficult. And I said staring, but not staring like that. No, no, no sexual harassment or whatever. Uh, imagine, uh. Let's keep things. Clear. Uh, but, um, uh, it was just. Yeah. So unusual that you couldn't have just to, to notice it, actually. And you shouldn't notice that, actually. Because if the woman realizes that and there is a chance she does because you have like 20 people, 30 people around her noticing that she entered the room. And if if she had been a man, we wouldn't have realized someone entered.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 22:32

So that's super subtle for her.

OLIVIER COLSON: 22:35

I think. Uh.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 22:37

Uh, I could probably say that this is different. I'm lucky enough to be here. And, um, everybody is so positive about me being here, either positive or indifferent, actually, which is very cool. But I did feel that, uh, when I began, and I was the first woman on the team when I began, some people would change their manner or whatever they were talking about because I went into the room.

OLIVIER COLSON: 23:02

In what way?

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 23:02

So they would be joking and they realized, okay, I can't say that around her. I can't be that rude. Even though every one of my colleagues is used to my humor, they were.

OLIVIER COLSON: 23:14

Rudely making efforts. Uh, so that is complicated because.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 23:17

This could be, uh, very positive because they comfortable. However, I felt like, uh, the reason I'm in this field is because I like this kind of, uh, mood in the room, and I like things being very, uh, uh, honest, and. I do like those kinds of jokes, and I don't want everybody to change because I'm here. So I felt like I had to push myself a little bit further than I used to, to prove to them, okay, that's all right. I'm one of you guys, you know, even though I wasn't. But just to be to make everybody comfortable. I don't know if you had the same, uh.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 23:56

Yeah. Pretty similar. Yeah.

OLIVIER COLSON: 23:58

Yeah, because I, I think so. Stop me if I'm wrong, but I think so. Not just for a woman, but for any human being. You enter a group and you realize that the people in the group, so they're happy you're there, they're nice with you. No problem with that. But you feel like they are less natural when they're with you and that they are keeping something, you know, that they're just not going the full thing because you're there. Uh, it might be a little disturbing, actually. Uh.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 24:22

I think it's more a problem When you meet people. Because as, as long as you are proving to them that it's okay, they can still be themselves and you, you can't stand it. I mean, usually you just run up, uh, 1 or 2 times, and it's okay. You are one of them. So I don't think it's a huge problem. And yeah, I mean, my team is maybe a bit more peculiar because we have a lot of women in it. Uh, so we don't have that much problem. But I think even at first when I joined my team, we were just four of us, and I was the only girl. But I never, uh, did this kind of situation. So, I mean, it depends probably on the people.

OLIVIER COLSON: 25:04

Yeah, that's actually interesting because how did Uh, uh, for for you in the team. So at the beginning, it was like that. Now not anymore. Or you still feel that sometimes people are a bit, uh, I.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 25:14

Do feel that nobody ever forgets that I'm a want. Them. To, actually. So it is, in my opinion, it is normal for, uh, the behavior to be different, uh, because of everything. So regarding society, regarding education, regarding everything that we grew up with. And this is funny because I am the Cammy. You're a woman. How do you. So I have my input on those questions like, yeah, you have those too.

OLIVIER COLSON: 25:44

Hey, we're asking uh.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 25:46

I once at, uh, after work, like we were more than the day. And suddenly I arrived, and Anthony turned to me and say, oh, Morgane, by the way, how many girls are there in R&D? And I was like, I don't know.

OLIVIER COLSON: 26:02

Like you should have the cards.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 26:05

So that was a funny day. I can say.

OLIVIER COLSON: 26:08

I think it's a very good sign when you can't you don't really care that much because I find it a little. I think it's I well, again, it's just my opinion. So I don't want to put I don't want to put it too high because, uh, my view of the situation is partial. Uh, but, um, uh, my impression is, is that sometimes and very often, actually, people tend to just recreate that old thing that, you know, when we were children, you have the boys team, the girls team, and they don't really mix. Uh, and, you know, it's the safe zone is to have both those teams and that is it. Uh, and I feel like often in the world in general. So not especially at Odoo, uh, uh, but people tend to, to recreate those, those, those teams, uh, because it's a safe zone and, you know, it just feels more comfortable. And, um, I don't know, uh, that's just a feeling I have. And put a fight between the two, you know, because, you know, uh, boys don't like girls, and girls don't like boys. That has always been like that. And it's a bit stupid. And it's nice to see that in cases where the whole integration, if I might say, uh, works, works well, uh, if I, if I understand you. Well, uh, you don't need to have those two tribes, uh, like that. Or at least you're not. You're not counting the points, uh, you know, uh uh, but still, uh, there is like the how do you call it the Odoo Girls Club? Yeah. You tell us about that. Yeah.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 27:35

Uh, so I am part of, uh, like. Yeah, the Girls Club. And in fact, I was one of the founding members, uh, because when talking with, uh, some friends, uh, we realized with some friends, with two other girls because we were just. It was just the three of us at the beginning. And we talk between between us. And we're like, okay, we have some dresses at, uh, at home, but we don't dare to wear it at work, uh, because there are so many men and so few women that we don't want to, you know, get seen. Uh, so we didn't dare to wear some dress and talking with them. We were like, okay, but we should. Because actually, if you just think a bit of the men won't even notice you are in a dress.

OLIVIER COLSON: 28:22

And they shouldn't. Especially.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 28:25

The other half. I mean, at least a quarter wouldn't mind like, yeah, okay. It's a dress. And the, the other quarter will be like, oh nice dress. Uh, so that's. Nothing negative, but in our mind we are like, okay, we need to, uh, get in the group. So we will stay in jeans and t shirts and stay dressed like men. Uh, and then with these two girls, we were like, okay, uh, let's pick a date. And we try to meet at the coffee machine with a dress, I don't remember. I should have looked. I think it took us, like 11 twice to succeed at it, uh, because it was very difficult to have the three of us in dress at the same time. At the same place. Uh, so, yeah, it took a lot of effort. And that's why at first we created, uh, the Girls Club, because at the time it was called the Dress Club until some girls were like, yeah, but I don't want to wear a dress. We're like, okay, fine, we will change the name. And she will just try to meet with us because it was fun. Uh, so yeah, that's the origin.

OLIVIER COLSON: 29:28

But that's cool, that's cool. And I think indeed, uh, uh, you know, I was talking about those two teams here. It's different because it's not fighting against another team or counting points or whatever.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 29:39

It's fighting against myself because the first like I said, half my team didn't notice. Uh, and one of my, of my friends from another team did bring me water because I didn't dare to just get up and take water because I was like, okay, people will see me. I am in a red dress. Everyone will see me, I don't want. And I was so frightened inside, so I couldn't and I was fighting against myself like I am a girl. I can readdress at work if I want and it is just me against me because the others it wasn't a problem.

OLIVIER COLSON: 30:13

Um, I think it's, uh, pointing another big thing feminism and just, uh, accept everyone, uh, and give equal rights to people. Uh, uh, it's just that sometimes there are things like that, that the way things are perceived here by women is also very important because, as you said here. Well, I think actually, I would say, I would say most of the men in R&D and I should say everyone actually. But I'm just being careful. Uh, didn't, didn't care at all about you wearing a dress or not.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 30:45

And indeed, I still. Think I get slightly a bit more of people saying hello to me when I am in U.S., but that's not a negative thing. So, and it's very slight.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 30:58

I do think it's paradoxical. Yeah. That's the.

OLIVIER COLSON: 31:02

Word. Yeah, that's a paradox at least.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 31:04

I don't think. It's a paradox that, uh, we want mean not dressing like we used to. Because you do wear dress all the time. Uh, you did wear a lot of them before starting to work.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 31:19

Not when working, because I always worked with So I am used to just not dress. Uh, I do as at work, especially as a chocolate maker. Uh, I. Mean.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 31:31

That wouldn't be.

OLIVIER COLSON: 31:32

Practical. We can understand why, uh.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 31:34

But you want to fit in. And how would that mean that you have to stop showing that you are a woman, and you have to stop having visible signs of your femininity? I don't think, yeah, this is relevant, but we do have this pressure.

OLIVIER COLSON: 31:48

Yeah, yeah. That's it. And it's just, you know, normal. You want to do it, you do it. Uh, you didn't cut your hair because you entered R&D, but like, oh, nobody has long hair. You know, it's not.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 31:58

For that reasons.

OLIVIER COLSON: 32:01

So I don't know. Uh, so you work in different, uh, um, uh, offices. So you work in Grand-Rosière. You work in Louvain-la-neuve? Yes. Uh, is it any different in Leuven, or do you have something like that as well, or.

MAURINE ANTONIS: 32:13

No, we don't have that. Uh, basically. But, uh, sometimes I like wearing, like, um, a more colorful jean, for example. And it's just showing that I'm a bit different, but that's it.

OLIVIER COLSON: 32:26

On the other. Hand, the mixity, uh, in, in the Well, if you consider all the employees in the office, it's higher because you have not only developers there. And so you have more women, but.

MAURINE ANTONIS: 32:37

Even in upgrade services, there are more girls Okay, in that team. Okay.

OLIVIER COLSON: 32:42

Nice. And do you feel a difference when you're So in the other year is the farm. Uh. It's okay. It's multiple old farms that were renovated and we have our offices there. End of the story. But so people understand, uh, but so do you feel any kind of of difference or is it just. No normal?

MAURINE ANTONIS: 33:01

No, it's just normal.

OLIVIER COLSON: 33:03

I don't feel this way.

MAURINE ANTONIS: 33:03

Yeah, yeah, but I, uh, in fact, I really don't Just. I'm just comfy in that dress. That's it.

OLIVIER COLSON: 33:13

Mhm mhm mhm mhm.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 33:15

I think the fact that you have a lot of, a lot of women they are always like very nicely dressed.

OLIVIER COLSON: 33:27

I'm like men as well. Yeah. Yeah men as well. But that's part. Of the job I think.

MAURINE ANTONIS: 33:32

Yes, yes.

MORGANE DEMESMAEKER: 33:33

So maybe it's I. I wouldn't say easier, but more normal here to where I was that like, yeah, at Grand-Rosière when you are only three girls the same day. Yeah. We didn't dare at first.

OLIVIER COLSON: 33:47

But on the other hand, if you, if you look at men care about that and they're like, okay, it's fine, it's fine. And now, you know, I basically work in socks every day. So, uh, so that's that's fine.

CAMILLE SPIRITUS: 34:04

There's a lot of internalized pressure, uh, that you have to like. Like if we had to succeed despite something which I think is unfair, uh, this is pressure, correct me if I'm not speaking for everyone, but actually me. This is a pressure that I put on myself, uh, all along, because nobody expects anything less or more of me because I'm a woman. But I feel like I have to prove something to prove that I'm worth the space that I'm in, and to prove that I wasn't recruited because I'm a woman. Because that was also the risk.

OLIVIER COLSON: 34:39

Okay, we'll go back on all these subjects right break now because it's always it's already been half an hour. So you're you're doing great. So, uh, stay with us and we'll be back in five minutes. And that's a wrap for today's episode. This first part interests you to listen to the second part. Be there next week as we'll post the rest of the conversation in which we answer some of our viewers' questions. If you want to join us live next time, don't hesitate to follow us on Twitch to receive the notification of our next programs. The link is in the description, and if you're in the mood for more captivating content, I highly recommend checking out our other episodes. Until next time, cheers!